Trading Shots: On fighters and brain trauma, Joe Rogan gave us all something to consider

Junior Dos Santos

In this week’s Trading Shots, retired UFC/WEC fighter Danny Downes joins MMAjunkie columnist Ben Fowlkes to consider the lingering lessons of Joe Rogan’s podcast discussion with UFC heavyweight Brendan Schaub, especially in the wake of a night of brutal heavyweight beatdowns at UFC on FOX 13.

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Downes: Ben, I think we should talk about the podcast exchange between Joe Rogan and Brendan Schaub earlier this week, and what implications it has for other fighters, such as the ones we saw in action Saturday night. Whether you agree with Rogan’s assessment or not, I think that it’s the type of discussion that we can’t avoid.

After every event, there are a few fighters with whom perhaps Rogan should have the same intervention. Stefan Struve was on the receiving end of a brutal KO at UFC on FOX 13. Add that to his other health issues, and shouldn’t he retire? Matt Mitrione (9-3 MMA, 9-3 UFC) won last night, but he lost to Schaub (10-5 MMA, 6-5 UFC) just over a year ago. Maybe he should hang up the gloves, too.

How are we going to determine who’s retirement-worthy nowadays?

Fowlkes: It’s weird how Rogan’s conversation with Schaub makes you see a lot of things differently, isn’t it? Saturday night was a great example. Rogan told Schaub that he wasn’t an elite heavyweight and he’ll never beat the top guys. But then, pretty much as a condition of Rogan’s job with the UFC, he was obligated to go out there and pump up Mitrione on the FOX broadcast, despite the fact that Schaub already beat him.

Then there’s Struve. Seriously, what are the differences between Struve’s situation and Schaub’s? What could you say to one that you couldn’t say to the other? If Schaub’s looking at a future that holds little else besides more KO losses and more flailing around in the middle of the pack, then surely so is Struve. Why no career intervention for him?

The only answers I can come up with are: 1) Rogan isn’t buddies with Struve, so he either doesn’t care enough or feel comfortable enough having the same brutally frank talk with him, and/or, 2) Struve doesn’t have the same qualities outside the cage that Rogan attributed to Schaub (funny, good-looking, smart enough to make a living talking into a microphone, etc.), thus making his brain, what, not as important to salvage?

I think this issue really stands out with the heavyweights, even Junior dos Santos (17-3 MMA, 11-2 UFC). Yes, he fought a hell of a fight and got the win, but you could argue that it’s worse for his long-term health prospects to get knocked around like that for five rounds than it would be to get knocked out in one.

I guess the question is, if we’re going to be fans of this brutal, dangerous (yet still oddly beautiful at times) sport, how much do we want to concern ourselves with armchair brain analysis? Is it hypocritical of us to celebrate wars like the one Dos Santos and Stipe Miocic  (12-2 MMA, 6-2 UFC) had, while also trying to pull the plug on other fighters who we think have had enough?

Downes: It’s certainly inconsistent, I’ll give you that. Then again, aren’t people always like that? You seem like the type of guy who lectures people about fast food and Monsanto. I bet you have organic milk and free range something or another in your fridge right now. Then again, I’ve heard that you’ve been known to enjoy a whiskey or two (or five). So does that make you a hypocrite?

Brain trauma is an issue for every sports fan. The only real difference between an MMA fan and an NFL fan is 1) American football has been around longer (unless fighting is the oldest sport, right?), and 2) the violence of someone getting punched in the face is much more obvious than a tackle.

To be honest, I’m not sure how to deal with it myself. Every time an announcer says “he’s trying to shake out some cobwebs” or “he needs to get his legs back,” all I think is that it’s a polite way of telling us someone’s been concussed. Do I change the channel, though? No, I keep watching.

No two fighters are the same, and that’s true both in skill level and non-combat opportunities. Some are better looking, some are more well-spoken, and others have greater intelligence. Coming to that conclusion doesn’t mean you’re a hypocrite – it means you’re realistic. Potential and circumstances determine your options.

I imagine there are plenty of readers out there who probably hate their current line of work. It may also be the type of job that’s bad for their long-term health. They’d like to leave, but where will they go? If you have a wife, kids and mortgage, it really limits how picky you can be when it comes to employment opportunities. There may be fewer HR meetings and more nü-metal in the MMA world, but fighters have to weigh the pros and cons just like any other profession.

I understand how the sport can make us uncomfortable, but what’s the answer? We only really have two options. Either you watch it and take responsibility for your culpability in promoting violent acts, or you ignore it altogether. Isn’t any middle ground just a way to make you feel better about yourself? You know, like that grass-fed beef you have in your freezer.

Fowlkes: First of all, I see no contradiction between grass-fed beef and good whiskey. Both are delicious. Second, while I don’t disagree with your suggestion that we all take responsibility for our roles in enabling and supporting the ongoing tragic play that is combat sports, I also wonder if our attempts to urge some fighters into early retirement isn’t a subconscious – or even totally conscious – attempt to assuage our own guilt about it. Are we telling fighters when to retire because we really care about them, or are we doing it because it would make us uncomfortable to see them continue to take damage for our entertainment?

Junior Dos Santos and Stipe Miocic

Dos Santos is one I keep coming back to. That fight with Miocic? That was pretty incredible. Like, to the point where I found myself saying stuff like, “Oof” and “My god,” out loud to nobody as the fight wore on. Part of what made that so riveting to watch was the punishment each man absorbed along the way. We use terms like “heart,” but what we mean is he got hit in the head a bunch and displayed a total willingness to keep getting hit in the head in pursuit of opportunities to hit the other guy in the head. That’s combat sports.

And dude, it is amazing to watch. It’s inspiring, even. You have these two people who want to win so badly, and they both refuse to quit. They keep refusing far past the point where most of us would have decided it wasn’t worth it. But somewhere in the backs of our minds, don’t we know that part of what’s amazing about it is the degree to which they are willing to sacrifice and suffer, both in the short term and the long?

The trouble is, now we know so much more (and yet still relatively little) about how brain trauma works. We’re burdened by this knowledge. Maybe the people watching Hagler-Hearns or Ali-Frazier had seen enough punch-drunk boxers over the years to have some sense that this was not healthy behavior they were witnessing, but I still think we know more than they did about the potential consequences.

The question is, what do we do with that information now that we can’t unlearn it? I know fighters will say that we shouldn’t pity them. They’re lions, and we’re sheep. They’d rather die as kings than live as peasants or whatever. They know exactly what they’re doing to themselves and they accept it. But do they really? Is anyone capable of fully understanding and considering the risks, especially when they seem so hypothetical to a 26-year-old who dreams of greatness?

Brendan Schaub

Downes: I think you’re on point with the guilt comment. We can feel better about watching Schaub getting knocked out because we say, “That guy should retire.” It’s like people that consider themselves Twitter activists (yes, that’s actually a thing). Passive activism is the best because you don’t actually have to do anything. I’m invested in world affairs! Look how many political statements I’ve retweeted!

The truth is there are a lot of unknowns when it comes to MMA. One of the typical talking points (one that I parroted many times in the past) is that MMA is safer than boxing. Intuitively, it makes sense. When you look at the number of punches a boxer sustains throughout his career, it’s far less than an MMA fighter. There’s no eight-second knockdown rule either, so the likelihood of the even more damaging post concussive blows is lessened. Perhaps MMA is safer than boxing, but we don’t have the data to back that up. We don’t even have the anecdotal evidence to support those statements.

I understand the trepidation when it comes to combat sports, but we’re trying to apply logic to something that defies reason. Take the “going out on your shield” motif. Logically speaking, it’s absurd. If you’re going to lose, you might as well do it in a way that minimizes harm. But if that’s the case, Bob Sapp is the most intelligent fighter in the entire sport. Something tells me though that you don’t really consider him a great fighter.

Logically speaking, you and your wife contributed to the growing carbon emission problem by having a child. Do you know what her CO2 output is going to be?

You don’t have to watch a NOS commercial to realize that doing irrational things kind of makes life worth living. Do I worry that I’ve caused irreparable damage to myself because of fighting? Yes. Was that a major reason for my decision to walk away from competition? It sure was. Do I regret my time as an MMA fighter? No, but ask me again in 10, 20 or 30 years. Deciding to become a professional fighter may be a short-sighted career choice, but it’s a choice. We all have regrets. Do you think being a fight fan will be one of them?

Fowlkes: Becoming a fight fan might not be too much of a conscious choice, the same way preferring brunettes over blondes or action movies over comedies isn’t too much of a choice. You like what you like. But remaining a fight fan? Yeah, that’s a choice, though I wouldn’t say it’s a regrettable one.

There are a lot of reasons to feel troubled by the things you see in this sport. Brain trauma is only part of it. What about the guys like Rich Clementi, who’s in pain every day from rib and spine issues? What about the guys with shot knees and pins in their hands? What about guys like Jamie Varner, who retired this week at the ripe old age of 30? He seems to have money saved and a gym business to run, but for every Varner there are five guys headed into retirement with no backup plan, no health insurance, no pension, nothing. If that doesn’t concern you as a fight fan, maybe you don’t respect these “warriors” as much as you claim to in forum posts.

At the same time, the point of life is not simply to extend it. You don’t win at existence just by playing it as safe as possible. There’s a certain beauty to what fighters do, what they’re willing to go through, and how far they’re willing to push themselves. What we see in the cage is such a perfectly distilled expression of truth. You can’t fake your way through it, and that has a definite appeal in a society that seems at times to be aggressively inauthentic. That these people want this badly enough to do it even when it seems like a bad idea, and even when the costs seem so permanent and so high, maybe that’s an inseparable part of the appeal.

All I really know for sure is that if we aren’t at least thinking and talking about these issues, then we’re pretty crappy people, not to mention crappy fight fans. We can talk all we want about whether fighters appreciate the risks and the consequences. What does it say about us if we aren’t willing to ask ourselves the same questions?

For more on UFC on FOX 13, check out the UFC Events section of the site.

Ben Fowlkes is MMAjunkie and USA TODAY’s MMA columnist. Danny Downes, a retired UFC and WEC fighter, is an MMAjunkie contributor who also writes for UFC.com and UFC 360. Follow them on twitter at @benfowlkesMMA and @dannyboydownes.